"Eating less will cause weight loss (not if ΔCI < ΔCO)"
Delta values are absolute, so they can denote change in both directions: a small decrease in CI and a large increase in CO can be described as ΔCI < ΔCO, while causing weightloss. You probably meant small decrease CI + large decrease CO and then this is true for gaining weight, but better to write that down as CI > CO! (or specify that you mean decreasing deltas for both)
Oct 22, 2023·edited Oct 22, 2023Liked by Experimental Fat Loss
In the study you cite about energy transfer from fat (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15615615/), the data analyzed comes from Ancel Keys' 1950 Starvation study, where participants were fed approx. 1567kcal (6.56MJ/d), the measured outcome was that approx 290kJ/Kg/d (69.3kcal/Kg/d) is the "maximum possible fat oxidation rate", however, isn't that just the body lowering it's metabolism, and compensating with the few FFA it can extract from the fat cells? While I can't find exact figures on this experiment, a quick google search tells me "the starvation diet reflecting that experienced in the war-torn areas of Europe, i.e., potatoes, turnips, rutabagas, dark bread, and macaroni." (https://jn.nutrition.org/article/S0022-3166(22)10249-X/fulltext), so wouldn't the high insulin prevent Hormone-Sensitive Lipase from breaking down stored FFA? (Note that this last link contradicts the study, as it says they were fed 1800kcal)
Just as a note, the part where this study is cited probably could use a bit of disambiguation, as that study is not related to water fasting, but a severely hypo-caloric diet.
At best, this study shows the maximum fat oxidation rate when you're in a major calorie deficit, and mostly eating carbs.
However, in the study linked below, fat adapted athletes burned between 1.3 to 2 grams of fat per minute, which (while an exaggeration) would be approx. 78 to 120 grams per hour, or approx. 708 - 1080 kcal per hour, clearly beyond what the previous study claims. Now, sure, they probably have a decent amount of this fat as Chylomicrons floating around, but they ran for 25 Km total in their longest run, even Eulid Kipchoge can't do that within an hour. (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32358802/#&gid=article-figures&pid=figure-2-uid-1)
So burning 2800kcal per day from body fat (like you say on your figure, "lol ya right") does not sound impossible, Extended fasting does lower BMR, however I don't think it's so black and white.
Vitruvius normally has one side of his face as partial profile, matching the angle of his turned feet… 45 degrees perhaps. That is why one eye looks wonky.
Reading over this whole thing, and your interview with the time mold guy, it sounds like you have an impaired GI tract as a lifelong situation. If this is the case, a GI fecal implant might help. And, if this is the case, using you as my fat loss guru would be a terrible idea :)
"I’ve stayed weight-stable for 2 months straight eating 1,000kcal/day"
ORLY?
Would you be confident to go into a metabolic ward where there is a team actually holding your calorie intake at 1,000kcal/day and see if this holds true? If what you are actually saying is true it would upend huge swaths of scientific literature. Scientists would be fascinated to discover and study your unique metabolic state.
Or maybe you were eating more than 1,000kcal/day...
"Eating less will cause weight loss (not if ΔCI < ΔCO)"
Delta values are absolute, so they can denote change in both directions: a small decrease in CI and a large increase in CO can be described as ΔCI < ΔCO, while causing weightloss. You probably meant small decrease CI + large decrease CO and then this is true for gaining weight, but better to write that down as CI > CO! (or specify that you mean decreasing deltas for both)
In the study you cite about energy transfer from fat (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15615615/), the data analyzed comes from Ancel Keys' 1950 Starvation study, where participants were fed approx. 1567kcal (6.56MJ/d), the measured outcome was that approx 290kJ/Kg/d (69.3kcal/Kg/d) is the "maximum possible fat oxidation rate", however, isn't that just the body lowering it's metabolism, and compensating with the few FFA it can extract from the fat cells? While I can't find exact figures on this experiment, a quick google search tells me "the starvation diet reflecting that experienced in the war-torn areas of Europe, i.e., potatoes, turnips, rutabagas, dark bread, and macaroni." (https://jn.nutrition.org/article/S0022-3166(22)10249-X/fulltext), so wouldn't the high insulin prevent Hormone-Sensitive Lipase from breaking down stored FFA? (Note that this last link contradicts the study, as it says they were fed 1800kcal)
Just as a note, the part where this study is cited probably could use a bit of disambiguation, as that study is not related to water fasting, but a severely hypo-caloric diet.
At best, this study shows the maximum fat oxidation rate when you're in a major calorie deficit, and mostly eating carbs.
However, in the study linked below, fat adapted athletes burned between 1.3 to 2 grams of fat per minute, which (while an exaggeration) would be approx. 78 to 120 grams per hour, or approx. 708 - 1080 kcal per hour, clearly beyond what the previous study claims. Now, sure, they probably have a decent amount of this fat as Chylomicrons floating around, but they ran for 25 Km total in their longest run, even Eulid Kipchoge can't do that within an hour. (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32358802/#&gid=article-figures&pid=figure-2-uid-1)
So burning 2800kcal per day from body fat (like you say on your figure, "lol ya right") does not sound impossible, Extended fasting does lower BMR, however I don't think it's so black and white.
Thanks for taking your wrecking ball to CICO! Now I can just point to this post rather than laboriously assembling mine.
Vitruvius normally has one side of his face as partial profile, matching the angle of his turned feet… 45 degrees perhaps. That is why one eye looks wonky.
Reading over this whole thing, and your interview with the time mold guy, it sounds like you have an impaired GI tract as a lifelong situation. If this is the case, a GI fecal implant might help. And, if this is the case, using you as my fat loss guru would be a terrible idea :)
"I’ve stayed weight-stable for 2 months straight eating 1,000kcal/day"
ORLY?
Would you be confident to go into a metabolic ward where there is a team actually holding your calorie intake at 1,000kcal/day and see if this holds true? If what you are actually saying is true it would upend huge swaths of scientific literature. Scientists would be fascinated to discover and study your unique metabolic state.
Or maybe you were eating more than 1,000kcal/day...